A few days ago, the Bobby Kennedy/Alan Dershowitz debate was released. As a lawyer involved in the vaccine issue, it was very heartening to see such a high quality debate on the subject. It was very enjoyable to watch these two extremely smart, deep thinkers talk about these issues with open mindedness, clarity and mutual respect for each other, and for the opinions of the other with which they did not agree. I can’t personally recall anything like this ever happening in the vaccine area. I hope that there will be more of them.
If you haven’t seen or shared it on social media, please do. If you have seen and shared it, share it again! Here is a link:
I made some notes and have some thoughts about what I particularly liked about the debate, and I thought I’d share them.
First, it wasn’t so much of a debate as a discussion among two people with very different areas of expertise. AD is a long-time legal scholar and extremely well versed on constitutional law. Bobby Kennedy is a health and environmental advocate, and knows a zillion times more about the science and policy than AD. Bobby himself acknowledged the differences in their areas and expertise and jokingly said he would try to keep the discussion on the science and policy rather than constitutional law. And he succeeded in doing so, providing AD with a much-needed education of the many of the mainstream-suppressed scientific facts concerning vaccines.
AD’s basic initial and general point was that based on Jacobson and other cases, the government had the right under its police powers to forcibly inject everyone with vaccines.
BK thanked AD for participating in this debate and lamented the difficulty he has had getting people on the other side (like Offit and Hotez) to debate him.
BK correctly pointed out that Jacobson didn’t force anyone to get a vaccine. It only upheld a law that mandated a small pox vaccine or pay a $5.00 fine. AD came back that there were other cases which upheld compulsory medical procedures. The debate didn’t get into the specifics, but AD was talking about Buck v Bell, a case from the late 1920’s in which Oliver Wendall Holmes upheld a Virginia law for forced sterilization for a woman (incorrectly) claimed to be mentally defective. The most significant eugenics-like quote from the opinion was that “three generations of imbiciles are enough.” AD didn’t talk about that case, which is probably a good thing, since it is viewed as one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever (along with the Dred Scott and the Korematsu decisions). (Here is an article about OWH which discusses the opinion, for anyone interested. https://education.blogs.archives.gov/2017/05/02/buck-v-bell/
My comment: I think BK is correct that forcibly injecting people with vaccines is fundamentally different from the issue in Jacobson. In addition, it has been over a hundred years since our government has had mandatory universal adult vaccines. That, plus the likely shortages of a COVID-19 once it is released could mean that the issue of a mandate for the vaccine will not come up. The caveat is that, despite the shortages and priorities of vaccine delivery, some states try to pass mandatory vaccine laws, either for adults or for children. That is something we’ll have to watch out for.
BK made the important point that unlike almost every other medical procedure, vaccines are given to healthy people, so there should be a higher standard for safety.
My comment: that argument should resonate with open-minded people.
BK made the point that vaccines are for others, not the individual. AD pushed back a little. However, I think most vaccine experts believe that most vaccines are for the protection of the recipient as well as the public. Even the HPV vaccine is thought to protect others (and specifically, the sexual partner of the HPV vaccinated). So not the strongest point, in my view, at least based on the accepted view of vaccine experts.
AD asked BK to agree that vaccines have been spectacularly effective in the past like with polio and small pox. BK said it was a complicated issue and cited literature about how it was sanitation and other public health measures, rather than the vaccines. Since this isn’t AD’s wheelhouse, he didn’t have much to say in response. BK would have had a much harder time with a vaccine expert, and I would think that this would be where the debate would have broken down, with the vaccine expert calling BK a crazy anti science anti vaxxer.
What about Masks? Twice (at least) AD asked BK to agree with him that ordering masks was constitutional. BK ducked the issue. It’s complicated
BK’s most important point was about the lack of true placebo testing in vaccines in general, and in one of the leading COVID-19 drug trials underway now. He pointed out that the protocol originally called for an actual placebo as the control, but during the trial, the protocol was changed to a meningitis vaccine as the control (a fauxcebo according to vaccine policy thinker Mary Holland, Esq.) BK pointed out that this vaccine had one of the worst safety profiles of any vaccine. Therefore this trial will grossly overstate the safety of the COVID-19 vaccine candidate, and there will be no way to actually assess the safety profile of this vaccine candidate, just like there is no way to assess the safety profile of any current mandated vaccine because in none of the testing was a true, actual, real placebo used as the control. This is the heart of the vaccine-concerned argument against vaccines (and you can expect to see this pointed argued in all of the cases I am working on for the California doctors fighting the medical board).
What Bobby is pointing out about the switcheroo in the control group is catching vaccine manufacturer in the act of scientific fraud, or at least showing why vaccine trials are flawed, unscientific, intellectually dishonest, but regrettably how all these medical products are actually approved. This is an extremely powerful point. I hope it will be repeated and be reshared in social media.
While the lack of placebo testing was the most important point substantively in the discussion (in my opinion anyway), I think the most important takeaway by AD was that his annual flu and pneumonia vaccines given by his long-time and trusted physician might be doing him more harm than good. BK made the point, supported by a high-quality study, about the overall deterioration of the immune system with the use of these vaccines in older people. I think that really shook-up AD, and I expect he has already sent his physician the study BK cited. I don’t think AD will be too excited in the future about getting these annual sticks.
And BTW: one of the things I really liked about the debate, format-wise, was the showing the first page of the studies and articles which they were talking about. Hey Bobby, if all the references you cited are not already up on your web site, please put them up, so we all can easily access them.
All in all, I think Bobby Kennedy did an excellent job presenting the case against mandatory vaccination and how vaccines are much less safe than most people think and most vaccine experts are willing to acknowledge. It was a pleasure to see such a high-level and cordial discussion amongst very smart and highly accomplished professionals, which regrettably is all too rare in the days we live in.
One further thing:
Bobby’s organization, the Children’s Health Defense, is being partially suppressed by FB and some of the other social media entities. So, keep visiting their web site directly and if possible, donate to the group. Here is the link to donate:
They are doing excellent advocacy work, and they also financially support some key lawsuits around the country on vaccine and freedom issues. (That would include yours truly’s defense of Ken Stoller against the Medical Board of California. Thx for that Bobby. Keep up the fight and keep debating!
Rick Jaffe, Esq.